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Craps What you probably don't know about dice

June

Member
Messages
200
I still have a hard time believing that the person running the game did not see that! How in the world do you spray something on a die that makes it sticky and not be seen? I guess people are more sneaky than me. I would be caught right out of the box! I just have a real hard time doing anything dishonest.
 

Rollem

Gaming LV
Messages
19
Another interesting scam I have witnessed is a group of players aim to be shooters, and each of them hold the dice a particular way to heat specific sides. As I explained in earlier posts, this causes a slight deformation. It is unavoidable and happens with any material.

Holding the dice for only a few seconds is unlikely to have a significant effect. But when a group of players aligned up in succession, each with artificially warm hands, the effect is more pronounced. Of course the casino can't prove any kind of collusion, but this kind of approach requires good planning and skill.
 

Heavy

New Member
Messages
5
Modern dice are made from cellulose acetate. It may be the best material available today, and there are strict manufacturing processes. This material is used because it is reasonably clear, hard, and less prone to deformation with wear and tear. But it doesn't mean they are perfect. The industry standard is accuracy within 1/10,000th of an inch. Most of the better manufacturers claim their dice meet the standards.


The dice photo in this post is my intellectual property. It was copied illegally by the poster - without my permission. Use of my intellectual property without permission is a violation of copyright law. Likewise, the text at the beginning of this post is taken from the Midwest Gaming website. Midwest manufactures my dice and certifies them perfect to within 1/10,000 of an inch. In fact, I have visited the manufacturing facility in Kearny, Missouri and monitored every step of the manufacturing process. It was explained to me that most gaming commissions require dice to be accurate to within 3/10,000 of an inch, they go to the extra effort to take it down to 1/10,000 of an inch. Although much to do is made by a couple of Internet trolls about unbalanced dice, in cases where dice are spun on a caliper properly and they appear to be heavier on one side than the other - the problem has nothing to do with the number of pips on one side or another OR the weight of the paint/filler used for the pips (which weighs the same as an equivalent amount of acetate resin). The problem arises when the dice are either (1) improperly loaded in the calipers or (2) one side of the dice is slightly longer than another. As little as 2/10,000 of an inch difference could cause this. However, that does not prove that the dice did not come from the factory "perfect." The dice are shipped by common carrier where boxes can be tossed about, stacked 30 deep, dropped, etc. They can be stored in warehouses or hauled in the back of trucks that are not air conditioned and can be exposed to extreme heat and cold. And, of course, the dice can be tampered with persons unknown. But the big point here is that a difference of up to 3/10,000 of an inch is considered to yield a statistically insignificant result in rolls - both by the manufacturer of the dice and the gaming commissions. When the person who is using my copyrighted material illegally publicly conducts experiments utilizing a mechanical device to toss the dice 1 million times to prove a statistical difference I'll believe this biased dice BS is anything more than a tempest in a teapot. Meanwhile, I would appreciate it if the website administrator would take down the photos of my dice as they are being used here without permission.
 

steve

Active Member
Messages
193
Sure ill remove the image. But i don't see any correlation to text other than consistent figures highlighting defects.
 

steve

Active Member
Messages
193
Heavy, I'm sure you and rollem could compare notes. You would probably know him but he expressed he didn't want to be known by name.
 

steve

Active Member
Messages
193
Btw if you are an expert i don't mind you posting links to your site, within reason. Just as long as you still help members here and contribute.
 

Rollem

Gaming LV
Messages
19
Many dealers in the industry will tell you that crooked dice are very rarely seen nowadays. But dealers comparatively know nothing. It's more the casino surveillance staff that are trained in these matters. Dealers provide casino floor observation, and as the pit bosses that ensure dealers are doing their job properly. But any casino staff on the floor are eyes and ears.

What do surveillance staff say? Even they will tell you that crooked dice are very rare and have almost never been seen in modern times. This is because modern craps cheats use approaches that are almost completely undetectable.
 

Rollem

Gaming LV
Messages
19
Usually a crooked dice is designed to win on a certain type of bet. This is either a pass or miss out. The miss's focus on the don't action, such as don't pass, don't come and so on.

Passes focus on the do actions such as past line. In my experience the casino staff are nowhere trained as well as they should be. Most don't even know that crooked dice players tend to focus on specific bets. And consistent winning on the same type of bets is a tell-tale sign. Not always though because difficult players have favourite types of bets. It's just one of the things.

I'm not trying to assist casino staff in this case. But it helps the players to observe for professional teams, and piggyback on their success without having anything to do with cheating. Basically other team would do the cheating for you, and you just take advantage of the situation. But there's a lot more to it to detect a professional team, and they are very rare. But I won't explain the details on a public forum
 

Rollem

Gaming LV
Messages
19
One of the typical manufacturing processes that prevents or at least reduces a bias due to number weight is that the material of the dice is drilled deeper in some sides to account for the difference in weight. But this creates another problem because the dice is still and balanced.

Specifically I'm referring to the centre of gravity of a dice when it is rolling along a particular axis. The physics of a dice that is dropped straight down is quite different to a dice that is rapidly spun along a particular axis. So again bias is most evident when is a combination of a type of throw, with the type of bias in the dice.

So you could have a strongly biased dice, but if it is not thrown in the correct way, you may receive little benefit from the bias
 

steve

Active Member
Messages
193
Usually a roulette wheel bias is strongest when the right conditions occur. It would be the same with dice bias.
 

Rollem

Gaming LV
Messages
19
Different materials expand differently with different temperatures. For example the paint used for the dots and cause and expansion greater than the material of the dice itself. If you manage to get a hold of a dice used by a casino, or at least the same model from a Supplier, you can test this fact. But not all dice will behave differently. In cases when you find particular paints or dies can cause greater expansion. You may aim to expand the side with six dots.

Measuring differences from heat expansion requires specialist equipment, or a great deal of testing. But if you are invested in gaffing dice, the equipment can be a worthwhile investment. Remember that dice from different manufacturers, and different models of dice, are not the same. They are all different.
 

Rollem

Gaming LV
Messages
19
The table itself plays a crucial role in the effect of the dice. Some tables are harder than others. Some is fluffier than others. So you need to consider wide range of variables that affect the outcomes for example more indentations in a dice from the serial numbers is more likely to catch on fluffier felt.

You will notice that some tables are louder than others when the dice hit. While it depends on the variables, generally louder tables are easier to beat with gaffed dice.
 

Rollem

Gaming LV
Messages
19
Shaved dice are ones that have specific sides cut down. This requires specialist equipment, and shaved dice are provided by some sellers. That using this kind of dice requires collusion from the staff members, or careful trickery to swap the dice. Unless the dice are virtually identical in appearance to the originals, it is going to be noticed by the casino staff.

Shaved dice are also known as flat dice. The most common types of dice of this variety will rule more totals of one – one, six – six, and one – six
 

Chris la

New Member
Messages
8
Modern dice are made from cellulose acetate. It may be the best material available today, and there are strict manufacturing processes. This material is used because it is reasonably clear, hard, and less prone to deformation with wear and tear. But it doesn't mean they are perfect. The industry standard is accuracy within 1/10,000th of an inch. Most of the better manufacturers claim their dice meet the standards.

- image removed by admin

As it turns out, most have an error several times greater what is stated. In most cases you will get dice with an error of about 5/10,000th of an inch. In fact, I've personally seen dice that are as much as 48/10,000th of an inch off. This is just the defects from manufacturing. Not only will you never get a perfect dice, but some of them out there are horrendously flawed.

Did you know just the heat from your hand can double the defect of an unbalanced dice? This is just from your hand. If you have the equipment required to make the measurements, make your measurements. Repeat the measurements a few times to make sure you have it right.

Then hold the dice in your hand for a minute. Repeat your measurements while the dice is still warm. You will find just the heat from your hand has deformed the dice. This is just the beginning.

In my time I've seen some remarkably clever ways players are gaffing dice. Gaffing is manipulating the physical characteristics. I will reveal some of the methods. You wont find them in any books or casino surveillance training videos. That information will be given later.

In particularly LV has some very strict requirements to ensure fair games. That is fair random games, within acceptable tolerances. For Craps, one of those requirements is balanced dice. It's not always actual law, although sometimes it is.

I hope everyone found this information useful. There's more coming.

You'll be surprised how easily dice can be gaffed. Relatively few in the gaming community know about it, and many have a vested interest and don't want to talk about it. Though even if you were to complain about it to a regulatory authority, you'll probably get a complacent response. They dont want the paperwork and hassle either.

I'll get into dice setting (controlled shooting) later too, but you don't even need that. If you know how to gaff a dice, you can readily do it and leave little or no proof you actually manipulated anything. Or at least the manipulation wasn't intentional. On this note, dice setting is not a myth although there are many dice setting course that don't do it right. I'll explain some of the studies, and my own experiences with it another time.
I agree with all that you said
 
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