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Craps What you probably don't know about dice

Rollem

Rollem

Gaming LV
Messages
19
Modern dice are made from cellulose acetate. It may be the best material available today, and there are strict manufacturing processes. This material is used because it is reasonably clear, hard, and less prone to deformation with wear and tear. But it doesn't mean they are perfect. The industry standard is accuracy within 1/10,000th of an inch. Most of the better manufacturers claim their dice meet the standards.

- image removed by admin

As it turns out, most have an error several times greater what is stated. In most cases you will get dice with an error of about 5/10,000th of an inch. In fact, I've personally seen dice that are as much as 48/10,000th of an inch off. This is just the defects from manufacturing. Not only will you never get a perfect dice, but some of them out there are horrendously flawed.

Did you know just the heat from your hand can double the defect of an unbalanced dice? This is just from your hand. If you have the equipment required to make the measurements, make your measurements. Repeat the measurements a few times to make sure you have it right.

Then hold the dice in your hand for a minute. Repeat your measurements while the dice is still warm. You will find just the heat from your hand has deformed the dice. This is just the beginning.

In my time I've seen some remarkably clever ways players are gaffing dice. Gaffing is manipulating the physical characteristics. I will reveal some of the methods. You wont find them in any books or casino surveillance training videos. That information will be given later.

In particularly LV has some very strict requirements to ensure fair games. That is fair random games, within acceptable tolerances. For Craps, one of those requirements is balanced dice. It's not always actual law, although sometimes it is.

I hope everyone found this information useful. There's more coming.

You'll be surprised how easily dice can be gaffed. Relatively few in the gaming community know about it, and many have a vested interest and don't want to talk about it. Though even if you were to complain about it to a regulatory authority, you'll probably get a complacent response. They dont want the paperwork and hassle either.

I'll get into dice setting (controlled shooting) later too, but you don't even need that. If you know how to gaff a dice, you can readily do it and leave little or no proof you actually manipulated anything. Or at least the manipulation wasn't intentional. On this note, dice setting is not a myth although there are many dice setting course that don't do it right. I'll explain some of the studies, and my own experiences with it another time.
 
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A

Aristo

New Member
Messages
3
Would love to hear more. When do you expect to post more information? Very interesting what you said about heat expansion.
 
steve

steve

Active Member
Messages
193
Hi Rollem, thanks for coming and contributing. I'll also follow your posts with interest. Again this will be a gaming purist website, like the wikipedia of gambling forums. I'll never run ads on it.
 
Rollem

Rollem

Gaming LV
Messages
19
Thanks and I will be happy to write in spare time. It also depends on readership. I expect to be fairly regular. I will add a link to this site in my book.
 
dicesetter

dicesetter

New Member
Messages
18
This is interesting. I think we'll have lots to talk about here.

I imagine there would be ways to maximize edge by combing gaffing and dice setting. Really hoping you can share more.

Admin have you thought of making some parts on the forum private? Thing is if you charge for it then some people won't post. But then if anyone can read everything it includes the casinos.
 
steve

steve

Active Member
Messages
193
I wont ever run ads or use paid areas. Also you'll probably find the most experienced casino staff already know most of what can be posted. Its not top secret. The average staff has only vague understanding and do little more than spin wheels, deal cards, pay chips etc.

It's all more a matter of experienced staff not wanting some information published. Because it would make their job harder.

The game protection consultants get the majority of information from inside the casino. They often do lurk forums though. I know because i know some of them personally.
 
L

Larry D. Haight PhD

New Member
Messages
39
Rollem said:
Modern dice are made from cellulose acetate. It may be the best material available today, and there are strict manufacturing processes. This material is used because it is reasonably clear, hard, and less prone to deformation with wear and tear. But it doesn't mean they are perfect. The industry standard is accuracy within 1/10,000th of an inch. Most of the better manufacturers claim their dice meet the standards.



As it turns out, most have an error several times greater what is stated. In most cases you will get dice with an error of about 5/10,000th of an inch. In fact, I've personally seen dice that are as much as 48/10,000th of an inch off. This is just the defects from manufacturing. Not only will you never get a perfect dice, but some of them out there are horrendously flawed.

Did you know just the heat from your hand can double the defect of an unbalanced dice? This is just from your hand. If you have the equipment required to make the measurements, make your measurements. Repeat the measurements a few times to make sure you have it right.

Then hold the dice in your hand for a minute. Repeat your measurements while the dice is still warm. You will find just the heat from your hand has deformed the dice. This is just the beginning.

In my time I've seen some remarkably clever ways players are gaffing dice. Gaffing is manipulating the physical characteristics. I will reveal some of the methods. You wont find them in any books or casino surveillance training videos. That information will be given later.

In particularly LV has some very strict requirements to ensure fair games. That is fair random games, within acceptable tolerances. For Craps, one of those requirements is balanced dice. It's not always actual law, although sometimes it is.

I hope everyone found this information useful. There's more coming.

You'll be surprised how easily dice can be gaffed. Relatively few in the gaming community know about it, and many have a vested interest and don't want to talk about it. Though even if you were to complain about it to a regulatory authority, you'll probably get a complacent response. They dont want the paperwork and hassle either.

I'll get into dice setting (controlled shooting) later too, but you don't even need that. If you know how to gaff a dice, you can readily do it and leave little or no proof you actually manipulated anything. Or at least the manipulation wasn't intentional. On this note, dice setting is not a myth although there are many dice setting course that don't do it right. I'll explain some of the studies, and my own experiences with it another time.
Click to expand...
 
June

June

Member
Messages
200
I didn't realize that there were so many problems with the manufacture of dice. No wonder I never win (ha, ha). I will be watching for the other posts mentioned above and look forward to getting more great information.
 
zephyr 12

zephyr 12

Member
Messages
241
(quote) If you have the equipment required to make the measurements, make your measurements. Repeat the measurements a few times to make sure you have it right. (/quote)

Will casino's let you do that at the table? My initial guess is that they wouldn't. The few times I have seen craps being played, I just see people playing......not measuring the dice.
 
Rollem

Rollem

Gaming LV
Messages
19
In addition to the manufacturing defects I explained, all dice are biased to some degree. The amount depends on the material used. The dyes and materials that make up the dots have a slightly different weight to the actual material of the dice.

This means that a single dot is a different weight to 6 dots.

Can you make use of this? It depends on the manufacturer of the dice in your casino. It really is insignificant though, but there are still some casinos that use particular brands of dice that exhibit such a simple bias. In fact I know of some Central American casinos.
 
Rollem

Rollem

Gaming LV
Messages
19
One of the more obvious (visually) crooked dice involves shaving off the corners, so a dice is more likely to roll predictably along a particular axis. With the right equipment and quick hands, a player can get the dice in this way although it's very risky. When done correctly, again particular axis are more likely to roll
 
steve

steve

Active Member
Messages
193
Rollem said:
In addition to the manufacturing defects I explained, all dice are biased to some degree
Click to expand...

Much the same as roulette wheels, except there are likely more contributing factors to a biased roulette wheel.
 
Rollem

Rollem

Gaming LV
Messages
19
Become familiar with the various manufacturers of dice. Carefully check their websites to determine the likely manufacturers. It is not difficult to purchase the exact same dice. Then you can run many tests to determine if the buyers with the dots is significant. You will need to realistically run thousands of trials though.
 
steve

steve

Active Member
Messages
193
Again similarities to roulette bias. It helps to understand the manufacturing process so you know common and likely defects
 
Rollem

Rollem

Gaming LV
Messages
19
Even if the dice does not have any significant difference in weight on each side, many dice these days have small engravings that identify the manufacturer, or a specific dice or serial number to track it. In particularly on certain combinations of felt material of the table, the small engravings can cause a kind of tripping effect that leads to a bias.

This is one visual example you can use. By using visual observations you can narrow down at least the dice that are likely to be biased.

If you check the image I added above in this thread, you'll see the number one thousand five hundred. This is a type of engraving I'm referring to. If you run your fingernail over the number, you can feel if there is any indentation.
 
Rollem

Rollem

Gaming LV
Messages
19
With regards to the indentations I explained in the previous post, it's important to understand that buyers will not necessarily occur on particular types of shoots.

For one thing, if you roll the dice along a particular axis, then naturally the dice faces along this axis will more likely contact the table felt. This will then pronounce the effect of that effective bias, and the bias.
 
Rollem

Rollem

Gaming LV
Messages
19
Barring two aces with a bias dice could reduce the casino edge, and give you an edge on the don't pass, don't come, and a variety of other bet types.

Although just because one dice with numbers doesn't exhibit a bias, it doesn't mean another dice with numbers won't be biased. This is because different shapes of numbers and text on the dice will lead to different bias. For example a trailing edge for the number seven will have a different effect to the number eight.

Perhaps now you are beginning to understand that small differences in dice to make a very big difference to the game outcome. When I say very big difference I mean even a 2% edge is significant in any casino game.

When a manufacturer does testing the bias, they generally don't consider the shape of numbers. And they give very little consideration to how the dice is thrown.

There is no doubt from my experience that certain combinations of factors do make craps a beatable game. But it takes a high level of knowledge and skill.
 
steve

steve

Active Member
Messages
193
I assume you mean the shape of serial numbers, not the 1-6 dots. Good info, thanks for sharing.
 
Rollem

Rollem

Gaming LV
Messages
19
There are far more scams involving craps the casinos know about and would like to admit. Eventually I will explain some of the scams and methods of gapping dice the casinos don't know about. Some are very surprising.

One of the more recent ones involved individuals very discreetly spraying a liquid solution over one face of a dice. This created temporary sticky side, which created a significant bias. Upon inspection of the dice later on, it would be near impossible to know the dice were gaffed.
 
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